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    Mixed Martial Arts Thread

    As per here, since some of you have no interest in mixed martial arts and probably don't want a bunch of threads every time something in the sport happens (and I don't want to make new threads), I think that we should try something new and have one ongoing thread for all things MMA.

    It'll be a good indicator as to how popular the sport actually is right now and people who want to learn things about MMA can ask and have questions answered.

    Specific UFC (and Strikeforce) events can be discussed here, too.

    The past two days have been pretty big for fight/event announcements and such, but today brings a fight between Japanese legend Rumina Sato and American wrestling standout Joe Warren for the upcoming Vale Tudo Japan 2009 event at the end of October.

    Fight Details

    Calling on Pat for comment, since I know that you're a big Sato fan.

    MMARising.com | News | Articles | Interviews | Rankings

    #2
    'Standout' Joe Warren.. why, because he beat a rusty and smaller Kid by split decision? And one other no name fighter called Chase Beebe? lol. He's only had 3 fights, and 2-1. Cmon, give him some more time before you call him a 'standout' and hype him up. Kid was rusty to the max and it was still a split decision anyway, that one fight proves nothing..

    I can't stand Warren, not just because he beat Kid(i'll admit that i'm a Kid fanboi), but because after he tapped to Bibi, he sooked like a bitch and tried to act like he didn't tap(which is huge disrespect vs the ref but more importantly vs Bibi).. he definitely tapped, and even if he didn't he would of had his arm dislocated and snapped anyway(and subsequently would of lost the fight), so to me it was a no brainer.. was funny but, seeing bibi storm off and give him the finger haha

    Anyway, Machida Vs Shogun. Who's your money on? Also, not just money, but who do you WANT to win?

    Mines on Machida of course. Money, and i want him to win. Anyone know the betting odds so far, or what condition shogun's in? You guys think he will come in in TOP shape and not gas etc? What about mentally and stuff? Is he super motivated now you reckon? I haven't seen any interviews with him yet so i dunno.

    Machida has stated that he's not treating it as a title defense, so he's gonna be super prepared i think. It's his first defense too, and vs Shogun, someone he knows(from pride, and known for a long time) and respects(or should at least), so i doubt he'd make any mistakes and underestimate him. I'm guessing that Machida has followed Shoguns career and knows what shoguns all about, so it's gonna be hard for Shogun to bring anything new to the table that Machida won't be prepared for. However, even though Shogun might know about Machida, it will be the same thing as for everyone else Machida has destroyed. He won't be able to find any training partners who can mimic Machida's style.

    Machida by TKO in 2nd/3rd round.
    Last edited by ex0duz; 10-18-2009, 03:23 PM.
    Abstract, Negative, Concrete. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. Bush, Obama, Trump(LOL!), .... YANG(?!?!)
    "I'd tell all my friends but they'd never believe me, They'd think that I'd finally, lost it completely. I'd show them the stars and the meaning of life.. they'd shut me away, But I'll be all right.."
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    Comment


      #3
      I like mma, but I think the sport needs a truly great champion to vault it to the next level. Right now, UFC seems to be a revolving door of champions. Everyone gets to wear the belt.

      Make an area i will read it.
      tftnewb

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by tftnewb View Post
        I like mma, but I think the sport needs a truly great champion to vault it to the next level. Right now, UFC seems to be a revolving door of champions. Everyone gets to wear the belt.

        Make an area i will read it.
        I think right now we're going to see dominant reigns by the current UFC champs. Penn will not lose to anybody at LW for quite a while, GSP will GnP victories over every guy he faces (again slim chance for a KO from Daley, but his ground game is shit and GSP has the strongest GnP in the sport) Anderson Silva is Anderson Silva, if he keeps fighting liek how he fought Forrest, jeez. Machida is Machida, he is poised to dominate the LHW divison for a good minute, and Lesnar is Lesnar, hopefully he'll lose to Carwin or Nog, but it probably won't happen.

        I think Machida will win by UD, but I want Shogun to win. He's an amazingly exciting fighter (on his game) and if we see Machida dominate here im afraid we aren't going to see a new champ for a while. I'm all for mixing things up, so im hoping Shogun wins be looping right hand.

        And Joe Warren is VERY much a wrestling standout. Hes a Greco Roman gold medalist, beat a tough Chase Beebe in his first fight, and beat Kid in his second.
        Originally posted by ex0duz
        although it was pretty fun back then to be the new kid in town in a new school and having all these new girls to go through
        My GF is making me add a smiley at the end of my posts because she thinks im too mean when I make posts here, so here you go:
        :)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by ex0duz View Post
          'Standout' Joe Warren.. why, because he beat a rusty and smaller Kid by split decision? And one other no name fighter called Chase Beebe? lol. He's only had 3 fights, and 2-1. Cmon, give him some more time before you call him a 'standout' and hype him up. Kid was rusty to the max and it was still a split decision anyway, that one fight proves nothing..
          "Wrestling standout," meaning that he is a phenomenal Olympic-level wrestler.

          Chase Beebe is hardly a no-name fighter, as he won and successfully defended the WEC Bantamweight Championship.

          Also, the weight class for the DREAM Featherweight Grand Prix was set by Kid, himself, and Warren had to cut down to make the weight. Not Warren's fault.
          Originally posted by tftnewb View Post
          I like mma, but I think the sport needs a truly great champion to vault it to the next level. Right now, UFC seems to be a revolving door of champions. Everyone gets to wear the belt.
          Hmmm, not sure about that.

          Aside from the light heavyweight division, every champion (even Brock Lesnar) has held the title for quite some time.

          Most people actually think that the promotion's biggest downfall right now is that most of their champions are borderline unbeatable.

          MMARising.com | News | Articles | Interviews | Rankings

          Comment


            #6
            Originally posted by IC.Shadow View Post
            "Wrestling standout," meaning that he is a phenomenal Olympic-level wrestler.

            Chase Beebe is hardly a no-name fighter, as he won and successfully defended the WEC Bantamweight Championship.

            Also, the weight class for the DREAM Featherweight Grand Prix was set by Kid, himself, and Warren had to cut down to make the weight. Not Warren's fault.
            Ahh, my bad. Didn't realize you were talking about him in a pure wrestling standpoint.

            WEC BANTAMWEIGHT? Isn't that like, Torres weight class? THat's even smaller than Kid? Seem's like Warren is just out muscling everyone? :P

            Hmmm, not sure about that.

            Aside from the light heavyweight division, every champion (even Brock Lesnar) has held the title for quite some time.
            Brocks had how many successful defenses? one? two max(honestly can't remember)?

            Most people actually think that the promotion's biggest downfall right now is that most of their champions are borderline unbeatable.
            Imo the biggest downfall is them not having legitimate/transparent system in place for contenders, and bias/favouritism on behalf of the org(dana n shit). If they want you gone, you're gone, if they want you to be champion, you're champion etc. If they wanted to, they could make the division balanced by bringing in others(like Fedor etc) but the main thing is bringing in really skilled no names(but then, you would have your champ lose to a no name, and that's bad for business..), but they are more about entertainment and making money than about real fair and legit competition(like Lesnar, Kimbo etc). That's why i'd rather watch dream, you see all new names and they are all pretty good(like Takaya n stuff, never heard of him but he came and just impressed me). UFC should setup a true featherweight/LW(or whatever it's called in the U.S) division(like 60KG n shit). Much more interesting fights in it. Dunno why U.S isn't into that.

            And yeah, while i don't like dominating champions, i don't mind it if it's honest. Imo if the champs are too dominant, they should set up catch weight fights between fighters.. like GSP vs Penn, GSP vs Anderson etc. I'm sure they can force the fighters to fight, but i guess that they don't want their champions to lose in a once off fight(unless of course, the fighters actually seek the fight and they've been too dominant for too long(like BJ vs GSP)..
            Last edited by ex0duz; 10-18-2009, 07:54 PM.
            Abstract, Negative, Concrete. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. Bush, Obama, Trump(LOL!), .... YANG(?!?!)
            "I'd tell all my friends but they'd never believe me, They'd think that I'd finally, lost it completely. I'd show them the stars and the meaning of life.. they'd shut me away, But I'll be all right.."
            Anime/Manga List | WCR Otaku Group(Now in Member Chat!) | The Chess Thread™ | Youtube Channel

            Comment


              #7
              Wanted to bring up the hot topic in MMA right now, the value of submissions and how it effects judging.

              The obvious problem is that grappling is much harder to understand from the standpoint of somebody who knows little or nothing about grappling, while anybody can see that a punch in the face is a punch in the face.

              One important part is distinguishing between good submission attempts and shitty ones. A flash armbar that an opponent barely wiggles out of is much different than some chump slowly throwing his legs over, only to have them pushed aside and get passed to half guard.

              However, I think the most important thing for people to realize is that having somebody caught in a tight triangle choke is can be equated to rocking somebody with an overhand right. Both moves put them very close to having the fight ended, and yet a fighter can recover from both. The physical damage is much much more evident from an overhand right, as somebody takes little damage from a submission attempt, but both put the fighter just as close to being finished. I think both should be judged evenly. However, I do think that if 2 fighters, one on his back and one on top are throwing punches and submission attempts equally, than the person on top should be given the advantage because having top control is a more dominant position than being on bottom.

              A decent article on the subject

              http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles...missions-20387
              Originally posted by ex0duz
              although it was pretty fun back then to be the new kid in town in a new school and having all these new girls to go through
              My GF is making me add a smiley at the end of my posts because she thinks im too mean when I make posts here, so here you go:
              :)

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by BoMb- View Post
                Wanted to bring up the hot topic in MMA right now, the value of submissions and how it effects judging.

                The obvious problem is that grappling is much harder to understand from the standpoint of somebody who knows little or nothing about grappling, while anybody can see that a punch in the face is a punch in the face.

                One important part is distinguishing between good submission attempts and shitty ones. A flash armbar that an opponent barely wiggles out of is much different than some chump slowly throwing his legs over, only to have them pushed aside and get passed to half guard.

                However, I think the most important thing for people to realize is that having somebody caught in a tight triangle choke is can be equated to rocking somebody with an overhand right. Both moves put them very close to having the fight ended, and yet a fighter can recover from both. The physical damage is much much more evident from an overhand right, as somebody takes little damage from a submission attempt, but both put the fighter just as close to being finished. I think both should be judged evenly. However, I do think that if 2 fighters, one on his back and one on top are throwing punches and submission attempts equally, than the person on top should be given the advantage because having top control is a more dominant position than being on bottom.

                A decent article on the subject

                http://www.sherdog.com/news/articles...missions-20387
                You make some decent points, but i have my own opinion on the matter and i completely disagree with you saying that a tight triangle should = rocking someone with a hard punch. Even if you almost sub someone, but you don't, i don't think that it should count more than actually doing damage and peppering someone with Nick Diaz kind of punches. So what if you almost subbed someone, that's like saying, oh i almost connected with my right hook or something. Why should you get points for throwing a right hook that could of ended the fight IF it landed? Grapplers get way too much benefits in MMA. They don't need more. I'll give you points for controlling the fight, but i hate when people get robbed and get awarded the decision because they 'almost' subbed someone(which is really hard to tell anyway, most the times you can't tell whether it's locked in or not. Usually if it's really locked in, it's over?). I hate giving people props for sub ATTEMPTS. It's like a KO attempt. You didn't land it, did no damage, move along now, nothing else to see/discuss. Same thing for takedowns. Yeah, it looks nice and i'll give you credit for doing it(it's better than nothing and better than being on the recieving end), but if you just takedown and can't do anything with it, it's pretty much worthless because he didn't any damage. I hate people who just takedown and lay and pray. This isn't wrestling or a grappling match.

                Also, it's not that easy to judge damage received from strikes. Half the judges are idiots and can't tell a good strike from a bad one. They usually label it as oh, that guy has no power or he has heavy hands etc, but they don't have any idea how power is generated in striking.. ie if he followed through, if he had good stance/was grounded etc etc.

                This also brings me to another aspect of judging. When talking about damage from strikes, people with stronger chins seem to get the advantage in judging. It's like the Bibi vs Takaya fight. I think Takaya did more damage overall and landed more punches, but Bibi just had a hardcore chin. Should he get more points for having a harder chin and looking more fresh, even though he ate more solid punches? This one's abit harder to decide for me. Takaya had a pretty solid chin too, and landed more strikes and did more damage. I think he lost that one purely because he got punched and fell down once i guess(which could be attributed to just being off balance, and not actually gettin rocked, which is the point i'm trying to make, ie you take more damage, but don't fall down or lose your balance, but the other guy takes just one hit and loses his balance and falls, and then the judges think that's some hardcore bonus and he got rocked when he didn't), which you can consider having a 'weaker chin'. But i wouldn't count that as getting rocked since he got up straight away and wasn't actually rocked. Overall i think bibi took more damage and overall Takaya just looked more impressive and did more damage. But like i said, this one is the hardest to judge imo. Grappling and shit should be a no brainer, but i guess i'm alone in how i view it. I still think that MMA is too biased and gives too much caveats towards grapplers/wrestlers, and that the striking game is much harder to understand and judge(if no ones gettin KO'd or dropping etc). Just look at Machida/Silva etc. Striking and understanding still has a long way to go for most people in MMA. People still don't even know why Griffin dropped to a jab or how a jab could Ko someone heh. You can tell by the commentating. They never comment on distance, footwork, speed, ranges of striking(like effective striking range and inside/outside 'zone' etc) when talking about the standup/striking game. It's always just the shit that's so obvious like they just say oh he got rocked, but they don't tell you why, or what his striking/standup strategy is(unless it's like, "oh he's going for that knockout big right hook, or if he lands that vicious right hook, or like CC's LHK it's all over!). They can comment and analyze nearly everything when it's on the ground though, but standup it's like blink and you miss it, and you have to be very knowledgable to understand what's going on in the striking game. Way more variables to factor in.
                Last edited by ex0duz; 10-19-2009, 02:53 PM.
                Abstract, Negative, Concrete. Thesis, Antithesis, Synthesis. Bush, Obama, Trump(LOL!), .... YANG(?!?!)
                "I'd tell all my friends but they'd never believe me, They'd think that I'd finally, lost it completely. I'd show them the stars and the meaning of life.. they'd shut me away, But I'll be all right.."
                Anime/Manga List | WCR Otaku Group(Now in Member Chat!) | The Chess Thread™ | Youtube Channel

                Comment


                  #9
                  The goal of MMA, wrestling, boxing, BJJ, kickboxing, thai boxing, sambo, judo and every other martial art is to finish. Be it with a Pin (wrestling) KO/TKO (basically all forms of striking) submission (sambo, judo, BJJ) or ippon (exclusive to Judo?) and in my oppinion attempts to finish the fight should be rewarded, the closer the attempt is to finishing, the more it should be rewarded.

                  I clarified between different sorts of submission attempts in my previous post. There is a difference between a missed punch and a landed punch, just as there is a missed submission attempt and a submission attempt that is hit, executed, but the opponent is able to slip free. There are different levels of submission attempts, it's not black and white, you don't judge a punch solely on whether or not it lands, as you pointed out. For example, in the Guilliard/Diaz fight, Guilliard obvious had a very deep guillotine in, and was incredibly close to finishing. Diaz barely managed to survive, however I consider a submission that close to finishing just as important as rocking somebody with a punch. Would you not reward them similar? They both come very close to the ultimate goal of MMA, the finish.

                  P.S. Sorry everyone that most/all MMA threads become a back and forth discussion between me and exo.
                  Originally posted by ex0duz
                  although it was pretty fun back then to be the new kid in town in a new school and having all these new girls to go through
                  My GF is making me add a smiley at the end of my posts because she thinks im too mean when I make posts here, so here you go:
                  :)

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ex0duz View Post
                    Anyway, Machida Vs Shogun. Who's your money on? Also, not just money, but who do you WANT to win?

                    Mines on Machida of course. Money, and i want him to win. Anyone know the betting odds so far, or what condition shogun's in? You guys think he will come in in TOP shape and not gas etc? What about mentally and stuff? Is he super motivated now you reckon? I haven't seen any interviews with him yet so i dunno.

                    Machida has stated that he's not treating it as a title defense, so he's gonna be super prepared i think.
                    How did you mean that?

                    Also, what odds did you get for Machida? I heard Shogun offered way better betting value.

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Shogun was +250 the last I saw, but that was a couple of days ago. I believe that he was +450 at one point, which is pretty crazy for a fight of this magnitude.


                      Anyways, in today's news, Kim Couture is an idiot and more fights have been announced for Dream.12 on October 25th, which will be the first DREAM event ever contested inside a cage. A white one, at that.

                      MMARising.com | News | Articles | Interviews | Rankings

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by ex0duz View Post
                        'Standout' Joe Warren.. why, because he beat a rusty and smaller Kid by split decision? And one other no name fighter called Chase Beebe? lol. He's only had 3 fights, and 2-1. Cmon, give him some more time before you call him a 'standout' and hype him up. Kid was rusty to the max and it was still a split decision anyway, that one fight proves nothing..
                        I lol'd.

                        Anyway, Machida Vs Shogun. Who's your money on? Also, not just money, but who do you WANT to win?

                        Mines on Machida of course. Money, and i want him to win. Anyone know the betting odds so far, or what condition shogun's in? You guys think he will come in in TOP shape and not gas etc? What about mentally and stuff? Is he super motivated now you reckon? I haven't seen any interviews with him yet so i dunno.

                        Machida has stated that he's not treating it as a title defense, so he's gonna be super prepared i think. It's his first defense too, and vs Shogun, someone he knows(from pride, and known for a long time) and respects(or should at least), so i doubt he'd make any mistakes and underestimate him. I'm guessing that Machida has followed Shoguns career and knows what shoguns all about, so it's gonna be hard for Shogun to bring anything new to the table that Machida won't be prepared for. However, even though Shogun might know about Machida, it will be the same thing as for everyone else Machida has destroyed. He won't be able to find any training partners who can mimic Machida's style.

                        Machida by TKO in 2nd/3rd round.
                        Shogun has a great chin. It's not impossible that Machida will stop him with strikes, but if it happens it's not going to be like the Rashad fight - much slower. Machida has been working out and it shows, but he still doesn't have the one-punch power of Rampage or similar (and not many do).

                        Honestly, I think that Shogun's best chance for victory is to attempt to dirty box Machida. I think that Shogun is saavy enough to avoid Machida's judo, and can attempt to wear him out. Thus far Machida has shown that he does not spend much time in the clinch; he gets in, throws either a knee or a trip and gets out. We don't know how he will respond to someone who's good enough to control the clinch, and we don't know if he has a durable body or not. Liver punches can make anybody a crybaby.

                        Shogun's Thai clinch background is another interesting element, but I think Silva can train Machida well enough to be okay there.



                        I almost wish this fight wasn't happening because both guys are among my favorite fighters. The closest thing I have to an ideal outcome is that Machida wins a narrow / hard-fought decision that sets up a possible rematch in the future, then Shogun wins that and we get a rubber match/trilogy between the two greatest LHW's of all time.

                        In any case though, I don't think this fight is capable of disappointing.

                        Originally posted by IC.Shadow View Post
                        Article I wrote up detailing the Henderson situation and some background on him:

                        http://www.mmarising.com/news/2009/1...h-strikeforce/


                        Elsewhere, Josh Koscheck overlooks another opponent.
                        Hm, interesting news on Henderson. If what Rampage said is true about all the BS Dana threw at him over the LHW belt, then Dan's almost certainly getting the short end of the stick too.

                        Hendo/Franklin was easily capable of being a #1 contender's bout, then Hendo gets thrown into a TUF shtick he didn't really care to do, fights Bisping (who you absolutely know would have gotten a title shot had he won), gets promised his title shot, and then... gets passed over, in very public/embarrassing fashion. Henderson has good reason to be irritated, and he's not getting any younger.



                        I may pick Mike Pierce to beat Koscheck by decision at this point. Koscheck can throw bombs but his striking/chin isn't really all that great, and if he's going to continue to ignore his wrestling Mike Pierce might actually be able to take him down and win by control.
                        Last edited by Ishegara; 10-19-2009, 05:27 PM.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Originally posted by Ishegara View Post
                          I may pick Mike Pierce to beat Koscheck by decision at this point. Koscheck can throw bombs but his striking/chin isn't really all that great, and if he's going to continue to ignore his wrestling Mike Pierce might actually be able to take him down and win by control.
                          Josh Koscheck is a DI wrestling national Champion, and a 4 time AA. He will not be out wrestled by Mike Pierce, which according to Pierce's UFC debut, is all that he has. Koscheck has amazing wrestling, he was outwrestled by GSP, which is acceptable him being one of the most athletically gifted people in MMA, and had trouble taking down Thiago Alves when he took the fight on 2 weeks notice. IMO even though hes a prick, hes a top 5 UFC welterweight, if not top 3.
                          Originally posted by ex0duz
                          although it was pretty fun back then to be the new kid in town in a new school and having all these new girls to go through
                          My GF is making me add a smiley at the end of my posts because she thinks im too mean when I make posts here, so here you go:
                          :)

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Originally posted by BoMb- View Post
                            Josh Koscheck is a DI wrestling national Champion, and a 4 time AA. He will not be out wrestled by Mike Pierce, which according to Pierce's UFC debut, is all that he has. Koscheck has amazing wrestling, he was outwrestled by GSP, which is acceptable him being one of the most athletically gifted people in MMA, and had trouble taking down Thiago Alves when he took the fight on 2 weeks notice. IMO even though hes a prick, hes a top 5 UFC welterweight, if not top 3.
                            Yeah, but don't discount Mike Pierce.

                            His UFC debut against Brock Larson may have been a snoozefest, but the fact that he was able to take Larson down repeatedly shows that he has some serious strength. Larson is one of the biggest and strongest welterweights in the sport. Koscheck is fairly small in comparison.

                            Anyways, on the middleweight front, it looks like we might get a very interesting fight at UFC 109 between submission specialists Demian Maia and Dan Miller.

                            That will likely be a very good fight, but a tough one to call. It's Maia's edge in jiu-jitsu vs Miller's advantage in wrestling and boxing. The winner gets back on-track for the title, while the loser takes a significant step backwards.

                            MMARising.com | News | Articles | Interviews | Rankings

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Only fight I followed closely was Penn vs St.Pierre.

                              Comment

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